Whipple 3.0 on a Stock Hellcat?

[Demid22]

Very impressed with the conversations in this thread. Clearly, this forum has a more mechanical mindset than the other place....

Regardless, my goals here are slightly different than the ET numbers being thrown around here (as impressive as they are).

Mine is a 2016 M6 daily driver. I'm a relative newcomer to the Hellcat world, but not to cars and tuning.

My problem is, this car doesn't really feel any faster than some of the other cars I've owned.

I'm currently building a bottom end to drop in the car and I plan to top it with a 3.0 Whipple.

I plan on doing a built transmission at the same time I do the engine swap, so it's a big project.

My question with the Whipple on the stock bottom end was more about do I need to burn money on porting/snout/TB to support the current 2.4L or can I just put that money straight to the Whipple and drop that in the car now.

I'm sure the car will make a few passes down the strip as part of TnT (most of my cars do), but my larger goals are healthy logs with improved performance from what I have now.

When I swap the engine and trans, that's when I'll get significantly more aggressive.

The Whipple is a much more capable blower. Id take the money youll spend on porting and new T/B and race rebuild(bearings) and put it in the Whipple. On a factory bottom end i was told im at max effort (10%lower 3.25 upper pushing 22psi). That also keeps the blower in a happy range of RPM. 8.9in(lower) / 3.25(upper) =2.73 x 6600rpm = 18k rpm for blower.

This is running triple pumps returnless and 1650 injectors. Catless Longtubes.

 

[GNBRETT]

Freaking hauling asssss bro.... Geeeeez

I have the Tapped triple 295's returnless with my 3.0 and 1700's went 8.4 in the 1/4 maxing out my injectors, fuel pressure was not dropping. In the process of upgrading to a 3.8, 2150's and adding 2 JMS baps.

 

[GNBRETT]

I run the Fore tripple with (3) boost a pumps. One for each fuel pump with 2150's. Probably over kill but whatever.

 

[terryd5150]

I run the Fore tripple with (3) boost a pumps. One for each fuel pump with 2150's. Probably over kill but whatever.

You running a Hobbs switch on each BAP feed?

 

[Marc W]

On the subject of pumps and injectors. Back when I ran Fore triples they (Fore) told me to never put one of those fkn things (meaning BAP) on their pumps. I was running ID1700’s. That was omg big at that time. Also back then, the recognized Hellcat tuners wouldn’t tune anything but ID’s. I inquired about FIC’s and the answer was NO. I was making over 1200whp with a 4.5 Whipple thru a T400 and the 1700’s were sufficient.

 

[GNBRETT]

You running a Hobbs switch on each BAP feed?

yes

 

[RGPIII]

You running a Hobbs switch on each BAP feed?

No I’m triggering mine using throttle input voltage. Don’t trust a Hobbs switch. They are known to fail.

 

[fubar569]

U dont have enought CI's for the 3.8. U need a 7.0 liter or bigger.

Cry now or later. The big CID build is in the planning stages. Just would rather only buy the blower once...even if the largest pulley restricts me to E85 on stock displacement due to boost.

Also...going the motor route first...would require topping it with a 2.4 IHI for a season. Equally ridiculous IMO.

I'm gonna be restricted to 1700cc injectors anyway unless someone really thinks they can get idle/part throttle on 2150's reasonably close. I refuse to give up pump gas street car status.

 

[GNBRETT]

I hear ya. I really wanted to run 93 octane myself. John says he's working on a 93 octane tune for the 2150's. I dont need or want it for power I just want it to get home if I cant get E85 for some reason. The only E85 pump station around here closes at 10 pm.

I use to feel the same way with never wanting to give up 93 octane but that 3.8 requires GOBS of fuel and its just not happening with 1700's. I did consider the larger pulley and 1700's but thats kinda silly cause I would benifit more from the 3.0 liter at that point cause just NOT in its efficiency zone at all and TBH would likely run like shit and make little power! That 3.8 needs CI's, RPM, Boost and FUEL!

I think when it comes to power the 1700's are just not an option with the 3.8. I would be thrilled with a flex fuel set up that I could go all out with on E85 on 2150's but simply be able to drive home on 93 if needed.

Having a seperate tune would be kinda worthless cause how am I gonna get the remaining gas out to run 93 octane when on the road cause a dedicated 93 octane tune isnt something I would ever use. Spend $35k on a motor and 93 octane doesnt sound so inviting knowing the consequences. Plus E85 just runs so cold its a no brainer for longevity as long as one changes the oil and plugs more often no biggie tho.

I would opt for the bigger motor first (I know shits expensive) otherwise it will just run like shit and ull get beat by cars with the 3.0. I would cry now lol. Ull pick up 40 hp or so with the bigger CI's and if u opt for Thiteck heads ull pick up another 40-50 hp so running the 2.4 isnt a total waste at all but going 3.8 first imo would be.

I would say if E85 is not available to u the 3.0 will be a better option for sure on 93. E85 just became available for me this year. Otherwise I would not even consider it if I had to fill up at my house every day. E85 MPG is awful so I need a gas station on the road but not everyone has that option but thinking ur gonna just pulley up and run the 3.8 on 93 octane is a pipe dream bro.

If ur plan is to run 93 octane then the Magnuson 2650 is a FAR better option than the 3.0. It will make more power at the lower boost levels required for 93 octane. That 3.0 requires more boost to be in its efficiency range when compared to the Magi. The 3.0 will make more power on E85 tho for sure.

Cry now or later. The big CID build is in the planning stages. Just would rather only buy the blower once...even if the largest pulley restricts me to E85 on stock displacement due to boost.

Also...going the motor route first...would require topping it with a 2.4 IHI for a season. Equally ridiculous IMO.

I'm gonna be restricted to 1700cc injectors anyway unless someone really thinks they can get idle/part throttle on 2150's reasonably close. I refuse to give up pump gas street car status.

 

[Demid22]

I hear ya. I really wanted to run 93 octane myself. John says he's working on a 93 octane tune for the 2150's. I dont need or want it for power I just want it to get home if I cant get E85 for some reason. The only E85 pump station around here closes at 10 pm.

I use to feel the same way with never wanting to give up 93 octane but that 3.8 requires GOBS of fuel and its just not happening with 1700's. I did consider the larger pulley and 1700's but thats kinda silly cause I would benifit more from the 3.0 liter at that point cause just NOT in its efficiency zone at all and TBH would likely run like shit and make little power! That 3.8 needs CI's, RPM, Boost and FUEL!

I think when it comes to power the 1700's are just not an option with the 3.8. I would be thrilled with a flex fuel set up that I could go all out with on E85 on 2150's but simply be able to drive home on 93 if needed.

Having a seperate tune would be kinda worthless cause how am I gonna get the remaining gas out to run 93 octane when on the road cause a dedicated 93 octane tune isnt something I would ever use. Spend $35k on a motor and 93 octane doesnt sound so inviting knowing the consequences. Plus E85 just runs so cold its a no brainer for longevity as long as one changes the oil and plugs more often no biggie tho.

I would opt for the bigger motor first (I know shits expensive) otherwise it will just run like shit and ull get beat by cars with the 3.0. I would cry now lol. Ull pick up 40 hp or so with the bigger CI's and if u opt for Thiteck heads ull pick up another 40-50 hp so running the 2.4 isnt a total waste at all but going 3.8 first imo would be.

I would say if E85 is not available to u the 3.0 will be a better option for sure on 93. E85 just became available for me this year. Otherwise I would not even consider it if I had to fill up at my house every day. E85 MPG is awful so I need a gas station on the road but not everyone has that option but thinking ur gonna just pulley up and run the 3.8 on 93 octane is a pipe dream bro.

If ur plan is to run 93 octane then the Magnuson 2650 is a FAR better option than the 3.0. It will make more power at the lower boost levels required for 93 octane. That 3.0 requires more boost to be in its efficiency range when compared to the Magi. The 3.0 will make more power on E85 tho for sure.

I too was wanting a pump gas setup just incase because e85 is an hr away from me. But it doesnt seem very feasible. Maybe a flex tune if i can talk Jon into it.

You speak of the 3.0's happy zone. Where is it do You think? Boost level? Rpm?

 

[vortecd]

Cry now or later. The big CID build is in the planning stages. Just would rather only buy the blower once...even if the largest pulley restricts me to E85 on stock displacement due to boost.

Also...going the motor route first...would require topping it with a 2.4 IHI for a season. Equally ridiculous IMO.

I'm gonna be restricted to 1700cc injectors anyway unless someone really thinks they can get idle/part throttle on 2150's reasonably close. I refuse to give up pump gas street car status.

@jonx96 has 93 in his car now with 2150s

 

[Demid22]

@jonx96 has 93 in his car now with 2150s

Dang. We couldn't get my 2150s dialed in, and that was with the whipple on e85. But im also stock displacement.

 

[fubar569]

I hear ya. I really wanted to run 93 octane myself. John says he's working on a 93 octane tune for the 2150's. I dont need or want it for power I just want it to get home if I cant get E85 for some reason. The only E85 pump station around here closes at 10 pm.

I use to feel the same way with never wanting to give up 93 octane but that 3.8 requires GOBS of fuel and its just not happening with 1700's. I did consider the larger pulley and 1700's but thats kinda silly cause I would benifit more from the 3.0 liter at that point cause just NOT in its efficiency zone at all and TBH would likely run like shit and make little power! That 3.8 needs CI's, RPM, Boost and FUEL!

I think when it comes to power the 1700's are just not an option with the 3.8. I would be thrilled with a flex fuel set up that I could go all out with on E85 on 2150's but simply be able to drive home on 93 if needed.

Having a seperate tune would be kinda worthless cause how am I gonna get the remaining gas out to run 93 octane when on the road cause a dedicated 93 octane tune isnt something I would ever use. Spend $35k on a motor and 93 octane doesnt sound so inviting knowing the consequences. Plus E85 just runs so cold its a no brainer for longevity as long as one changes the oil and plugs more often no biggie tho.

I would opt for the bigger motor first (I know shits expensive) otherwise it will just run like shit and ull get beat by cars with the 3.0. I would cry now lol. Ull pick up 40 hp or so with the bigger CI's and if u opt for Thiteck heads ull pick up another 40-50 hp so running the 2.4 isnt a total waste at all but going 3.8 first imo would be.

I would say if E85 is not available to u the 3.0 will be a better option for sure on 93. E85 just became available for me this year. Otherwise I would not even consider it if I had to fill up at my house every day. E85 MPG is awful so I need a gas station on the road but not everyone has that option but thinking ur gonna just pulley up and run the 3.8 on 93 octane is a pipe dream bro.

If ur plan is to run 93 octane then the Magnuson 2650 is a FAR better option than the 3.0. It will make more power at the lower boost levels required for 93 octane. That 3.0 requires more boost to be in its efficiency range when compared to the Magi. The 3.0 will make more power on E85 tho for sure.

I would say I spend 50% of my time or more on E85 or some blend of ethanol now as I have a 55gal filling station at my house. I do use 93 on extended road trips and when commuting to work.

The car is actually on a Dusterhoff flex tune right now with a dedicated E85 tune for the track. I have ran the E85 race tune on the street for extended periods with all manners of pulley all the way down to a 2.50 and even while towing the trailer. I notice no difference except cold cold starts.

I guess my concern besides street manners is in the longevity of spinning a 3.0 fast enough to make well into 4 digit range. I could spin the 3.8 a good bit slower while still being in it's curve and make better (and perhaps cooler) power.

I have all winter to contemplate things but I'm expecting a sale on some stuff this week so...

 

[Jon-MooredPerformanceLLC]

Ya I haven’t tried a wot pull and honestly don’t know if I will. At this point driving around town needs a little work mostly just in initial decel. But it’s running fine.

 

[fubar569]

Ya I haven’t tried a wot pull and honestly don’t know if I will. At this point driving around town needs a little work mostly just in initial decel. But it’s running fine.

You keep your s%#t up and it's gonna make me spend really dumb money.

Stahp. Lol.

 

[Jon-MooredPerformanceLLC]

You keep your s%#t up and it's gonna make me spend really dumb money.

Stahp. Lol.

O. Well I’m about to announce 10 percent off all fic injectors. See look I’m saving you money 🤣

 

[GNBRETT]

I guess im a little hesitant on anything flex since its just being "Inferred". I believe Jeremy at Satera has the only true flex fuel tuning as he states he has cracked the ECU to be able to actually change things vs. inferring data to make that change.

In fact, several tuners have jumped on board with his Flexfuel tune program as a vendor for Satera but im not totally sure what he is doing that others are not. Jeremy states he is the ONLY one that can tune it safely with the computer seeing and making changes vs. inferring data to make that change.

Its a little beyond my comprehension maybe John can chum in and explain a little better. But I know 3 tuners who have jumped on his Flexfuel tune program and Barth is one of them.

Several tuners stopped using the flex fuel "Inferring" simply cause u cant make any real power with it without risking detonation. For me, it would simply be just another form of fuel to get me home I have ZERO interest in trying to make power on 93 octane TBH. With the 3.8 its just silly imo to run anything other than E85. Its a GIANT blower and just wont work well on 93 period!

I doubt Dusterhoff could get that flex tune to work on 2150's but maybe just not for any sort of power tho. Even Jeremy at Satera states he would NOT recommened making big power on a 93 octane/E85 Flextune. He did say if one went TT it would be a lot safer and more doable because with a BC one can just turn the boost levels down u dont get that option with a blower unless u swap pulleys.

I would say I spend 50% of my time or more on E85 or some blend of ethanol now as I have a 55gal filling station at my house. I do use 93 on extended road trips and when commuting to work.

The car is actually on a Dusterhoff flex tune right now with a dedicated E85 tune for the track. I have ran the E85 race tune on the street for extended periods with all manners of pulley all the way down to a 2.50 and even while towing the trailer. I notice no difference except cold cold starts.

I guess my concern besides street manners is in the longevity of spinning a 3.0 fast enough to make well into 4 digit range. I could spin the 3.8 a good bit slower while still being in it's curve and make better (and perhaps cooler) power.

I have all winter to contemplate things but I'm expecting a sale on some stuff this week so...

 

[Jon-MooredPerformanceLLC]

I guess im a little hesitant on anything flex since its just being "Inferred". I believe Jeremy at Satera has the only true flex fuel tuning as he states he has cracked the ECU to be able to actually change things vs. inferring data to make that change.

In fact, several tuners have jumped on board with his Flexfuel tune program as a vendor for Satera but im not totally sure what he is doing that others are not. Jeremy states he is the ONLY one that can tune it safely with the computer seeing and making changes vs. inferring data to make that change.

Its a little beyond my comprehension maybe John can chum in and explain a little better. But I know 3 tuners who have jumped on his Flexfuel tune program and Barth is one of them.

Several tuners stopped using the flex fuel "Inferring" simply cause u cant make any real power with it without risking detonation. For me, it would simply be just another form of fuel to get me home I have ZERO interest in trying to make power on 93 octane TBH. With the 3.8 its just silly imo to run anything other than E85. Its a GIANT blower and just wont work well on 93 period!

I doubt Dusterhoff could get that flex tune to work on 2150's but maybe just not for any sort of power tho. Even Jeremy at Satera states he would NOT recommened making big power on a 93 octane/E85 Flextune. He did say if one went TT it would be a lot safer and more doable because with a BC one can just turn the boost levels down u dont get that option with a blower unless u swap pulleys.

I am pretty sure they are still inferring the fueling side. They remove the Iat sensor and use that to change timing using the temp safety tables that are in place but instead of temps it’s changing timing based on fuel content. 100 percent removing the Iat safeties.
hp tuners flex patch had issues with newer Redeye’s. I couldn’t help but notice they kept posting flex videos of everything besides these problematic vehicles.

 

[Jon-MooredPerformanceLLC]

Unless they are using this for fuel changes. I’m not really sure.
https://www.advancedfueldynamics.co...odge-charger-challenger-hellcat-red-eye-demon

 

[vortecd]

Dang. We couldn't get my 2150s dialed in, and that was with the whipple on e85. But im also stock displacement.

Talking to Jon there were others things you were fighting though