Time to mod, thinking of going Flex Fuel. Need advice!

[hellcatpekes]

Hey everyone. So warranty just expired and I'm ready to mod!

At first I wasn't looking for a HUGE amount of power. I don't track my car...it's just a DD in the summer that I have fun with.

But then I saw most tunes are for 93 octane...there's literally no 93 around where I live or that's convenient, let alone on road trips. Max of 92 only and on road trips I usually only see 91. But E85 is plentiful and right down 2 blocks from me for fill ups!

So that's why I've decided on a flex fuel set up with the bonus of extra HP the flexibility of it. I can fill up on E85 pretty regularly or the other octanes when away from home with no worries.

Looking for the best bang for the buck on this one.

First off I used to own a SRT-4 E85 and fully aware of the horrible gas mileage, rough starts etc. I'm expecting that not worried about it.

So my questions are:
Who did your flex tune and what's the exact setup you got for it (part list, tuning etc)

How has the experience been with flex fuel? Can you just fill up with 91 and hammer it and it's all good? Or pussy-foot it to give the PCM time to learn? And vice versa, do you fill up from a empty 91 tank to E85 and see a instant huge increase in power?

Been shopping the vendors and they offer different packages that are all over the place. I have no idea what pully to go with, if I need a under, pin the crank etc. I'm a newb at E85 supercharged cars and the several options in packages when converting to E85

A parts list would be ideal.

So far I've checked out Barth Tuning and Dusterhoff that offer their Flex tune packages in various ways and quite frankly a little confusing! lol Example Barth tuning doesnt list a cost for a cracked PCM. It seems it's simply up to me to do that on my side. On the other hand Dusterhoff includes a fee for a new cracked PCM...I guess I just replace my stock with their cracked PCM and I can sell my stock PCM on the side? What I'm used to is getting a core fee refunded to me but doesn't seem to be an option with either tuner.

Thanks in advance for sharing. Ready to learn about this set up and decide who I want to go with!

 

[parttimer]

Barth uses a sensor to determine E85 at the rails for nearly instant changes in content. Dusteroff uses logic from the O2 sensors to determine content so it takes it a few minutes to learn the new content. Unless your car already has dual pumps, Red Eye and Trackhawk, you will need a pump setup. Barth, last I knew used boost a pumps to overdrive your stock to get you the fuel you need. Dusteroff uses dual pumps. You will need injectors, FIC 1200 or ID 1300 are the most common. If you're going to a significantly smaller pulley, you'll want to pin the crank. I run a 2.6 with straight E85. I think most people will do an intake as well. The PCM is up to you. Barth used to charge a fee, or you could buy an unlocked unit, Dusteroff every so often runs a special that includes a free unlock for HP tuners. Both vendors will have a complete setup package, or you can piece meal it and try to get everything cheaper. The other mods people do act in synergy to get a few extra horses out of the setup, ported snout, blower, bearing plate, supercharger spacers, down pipes.

 

[jonx96]

Choosing the right tuner for this will be the biggest challenge. Some are much better than other. HP Tuners works pretty decent with the flex fuel patch. It isn't 100% perfect but yes you can go WOT with 91 or e85 in the tank.
If you chose the right tuner you won't have hard starts. Fuel mileage also won't be terrible cruising down the highway if your tuner is good.
Parts list:
2.85 pulley. I like grip tech.
fic 1200 or id1300
Dual Pumps - Tapped performance - HHP - OST all make a pretty good plug and play setup
PCM Unlock is 100% free. This is nothing special one tuner offers over another. If you buy the tuning device or the 6 credits these cars take HP Tuners will do it for free.
I personal run my straight e85 tune because I don't hardly ever run pump gas. Yes I have put a jug of e85 in the trunk just in case if I drive to an unknown area. But have never needed it.

 

[vortecd]

For all the issues I have seen I would do a tune for e85 and a driving tune for 93. Once you can run e85 why would you want a performance tune for 93?

 

[jonx96]

For all the issues I have seen I would do a tune for e85 and a driving tune for 93. Once you can run e85 why would you want a performance tune for 93?

Wouldn't surprise me if most tuners would charge 2 full tune prices for this. Also in his case he can do a 91 tune. Which would be even less hp.

 

[vortecd]

The way I see it for tuning from them is there is another cost for e85. So if the tune was $500 and it says tuning for E85 is another $300 then that is the way I see it. You have 1 for 93 and 1 for e85 If you were just tuning for for 1 fuel then I don't think why there would be another cost. Maybe I'm wrong

 

[jonx96]

The way I see it for tuning from them is there is another cost for e85. So if the tune was $500 and it says tuning for E85 is another $300 then that is the way I see it. You have 1 for 93 and 1 for e85 If you were just tuning for for 1 fuel then I don't think why would be another cost. Maybe I'm wrong

You mean more mine 800+ dollars for the tune

 

[ACMAVRO]

Subscribed

 

[hellcatpekes]

Barth uses a sensor to determine E85 at the rails for nearly instant changes in content. Dusteroff uses logic from the O2 sensors to determine content so it takes it a few minutes to learn the new content. Unless your car already has dual pumps, Red Eye and Trackhawk, you will need a pump setup. Barth, last I knew used boost a pumps to overdrive your stock to get you the fuel you need. Dusteroff uses dual pumps. You will need injectors, FIC 1200 or ID 1300 are the most common. If you're going to a significantly smaller pulley, you'll want to pin the crank. I run a 2.6 with straight E85. I think most people will do an intake as well. The PCM is up to you. Barth used to charge a fee, or you could buy an unlocked unit, Dusteroff every so often runs a special that includes a free unlock for HP tuners. Both vendors will have a complete setup package, or you can piece meal it and try to get everything cheaper. The other mods people do act in synergy to get a few extra horses out of the setup, ported snout, blower, bearing plate, supercharger spacers, down pipes.

Thanks for the info.
My understanding is on a flex fuel tune I''ll need a specific pulley to accommodate that so there's no pulley swapping needed? I like the idea of a instant read from Barth...a bit more driver friendly for my wife if she uses the car to run somewhere.

I'd also prefer to skip BAP and just go dual pumps that Dusterhoff offers. Just seems safer to say the least. I'm sure Barth can offer a dual pump setup too but seems it might be much more expensive.

The PCM unlocking is a bit confusing to me still. This will all be done remotely as I'm to far away from either shop (dusterhoff or barth). Sounds like maybe I take out my PCM and send it to them for a unlock service then they send it back. I wish they would just ship a unlocked and "box tune" loaded PCM, charge me a core charge and then refund once I send my stock on in. Then I have all the parts I need in one shot/one install. Wonder if that's a option at all.

Choosing the right tuner for this will be the biggest challenge. Some are much better than other. HP Tuners works pretty decent with the flex fuel patch. It isn't 100% perfect but yes you can go WOT with 91 or e85 in the tank.
If you chose the right tuner you won't have hard starts. Fuel mileage also won't be terrible cruising down the highway if your tuner is good.
Parts list:
2.85 pulley. I like grip tech.
fic 1200 or id1300
Dual Pumps - Tapped performance - HHP - OST all make a pretty good plug and play setup
PCM Unlock is 100% free. This is nothing special one tuner offers over another. If you buy the tuning device or the 6 credits these cars take HP Tuners will do it for free.
I personal run my straight e85 tune because I don't hardly ever run pump gas. Yes I have put a jug of e85 in the trunk just in case if I drive to an unknown area. But have never needed it.

I think I'm kind of narrowed down to either dusterhoff with Curt tuning it or Barth tuning. Seems to be the top two dogs and probably the safest options. I do not want some random tuner blowing up my motor.

I emailed Barth laying out my wants so we'll see what they come back with as far as parts and pricing goes. I'll have to do the same soon with Dusterhoff (I did a while back but no response). I think I'm leaning towards Barth's E85 Flex package but skipping the BAP and subbing a dual pump if they even offer that in a package deal. My turn off is I'm sure it'll be a bit more expensive than Dusterhoff but that's a assumption at this point.

Overall when you visit their packages online there are all sorts of addons that make it all confusing. You can add E85 packages to most of their performance packages etc. Example I can add a Flex fuel E85 option to Dusterhoff's stage 2 package for 2k (wouldn't that make it a stage 4 package then??) and then can add flex fuel option to stage 4 for 600. Then I can add a unlocked PCM for 900. I assume that's for a brand new unlocked PMC that replaces my stock. Or I can skip this and ship my own to get unlocked?
Barth's are kind of the same way. There's no mention of flex fuel within the package deals. There's a single flex fuel tune item available for 1400 though outside of the packages.

Let's hope I get some answers from these guys and they can put together a flex fuel package for me since my needs aren't really lining up with what's on their website.

For all the issues I have seen I would do a tune for e85 and a driving tune for 93. Once you can run e85 why would you want a performance tune for 93?

I've gone down this road with my prior car when flex tunes weren't a thing. It's really annoying when you don't have access to E85 and have to hook up the tuner to swap tunes. Just very nice that if I'm traveling a distance and there's no E85 available I'm fine with no worries.

It also allows me to easily clean the system once a month are so by just filling up with 91 and burning a tank every now and then. Also when it comes time to store over winter I burn down the E85 and fill up with 91 for storage.
Just a lot of pros over cons with a Flex tune IMO!

 

[jonx96]

Barths tool at the rail I believe is only to read ethanol content. There is only one device on the market right now that lets you have Flex with a sensor but with that kit you cannot adjust timing between the to fuels so kind of defeats the purpose.
But if I was you and those are your only two picks I'd call Barth. Barth will do dual pumps or a BAP everyone will recommend the dual pumps.

 

[hellcatpekes]

Barths tool at the rail I believe is only to read ethanol content. There is only one device on the market right now that lets you have Flex with a sensor but with that kit you cannot adjust timing between the to fuels so kind of defeats the purpose.
But if I was you and those are your only two picks I'd call Barth. Barth will do dual pumps or a BAP everyone will recommend the dual pumps.

Yep I saw another thread on here with data logging with BAP then Dual fuel pumps. Fuel pressure was dropping hard due to reduced voltage running other accessories. Then the Dual fuel pumps performance was insanely better/safer. Might as well do it right the first time. lol

 

[fubar569]

Barth appears to be continuing the work of Satera as him, Jeremy and AJ are the only ones using a direct sensor and yes...their flex automatically adjusts fuel and timing to match measured content. This is instant and the most accurate way to do so but Jeremy is no longer actively advertising the True Flex package as some vehicles require much work to make it work...like several days to a couple weeks according to his video.

I used Dusterhoff and his runs the inferred logic. This is how Ford and dodge both do flex fuel from the factory. The ECU has the native ability to do so and HP Tuners just enables it with a patch to the factory OS.

On either flex package you will need to choose an appropriate pulley that covers both fuels. Reason being is boost bleed never came to fruition so you can't run more boost than your lowest octane fuel can handle. That is usually around a 2.79 on a stock blower...or a 2.90+ on a ported one. Under 16psi would be a good target for 92/93.

Dusterhoff's staged packages are single fuel only unless you specifically select flex option and the 2.85 pulley ring. This would get you a flex tune for daily use and a 2.50 ring with an E80+ only kill tune. You can run the 2.85 on the E85 only tune but NOT the other way around. Never run anything else but the larger pulley on flex.

It does take anywhere from 5-15 miles in my experience for the ethanol content to learn and stabalize to the new reading as it burns. I wouldn't go WOT during this time just to be safe. No matter which option you go with...wait until the Content stabilizes first.

Barth would be my pick if you're closer to him. Satera is also in that area. If you're in the south I'd say either Curt or Mario.

 

[Speedy!]

Lots of good info others have provided on the specifics, but if you don't take the car to the track why fool with it at all? It's a lot of money to get a flex setup and you won't really get to use it much unless you're friends with the local DA with a get out of jail free card.

I run a 2.72 Hellraiser decoupler pulley, dual pump setup, ID1300x injectors, and a flex tune. On full E85 my car will accelerate from 40 to 140MPH in about 10 seconds with the tires spinning from 40 to 60. It sounds fun and all but honestly I rarely go WOT on public roads as it's just too much.

At the drag strip I run a dedicated E85 tune and it's glorious in that setting.

That's my .02 cents.

 

[jonx96]

Just reading through this. I think one thing needs to be clarified. You can tune for 91 octane and see really good improvements with a 2.85 pulley. To do this you will need a tuning device, tune, pulley, belt, and injectors. Also do the trans tune it helps a lot.

 

[fubar569]

Just reading through this. I think one thing needs to be clarified. You can tune for 91 octane and see really good improvements with a 2.85 pulley. To do this you will need a tuning device, tune, pulley, belt, and injectors. Also do the trans tune it helps a lot.

100% on the trans tune.

Night and day difference

 

[hellcatpekes]

Lots of good info others have provided on the specifics, but if you don't take the car to the track why fool with it at all? It's a lot of money to get a flex setup and you won't really get to use it much unless you're friends with the local DA with a get out of jail free card.

I run a 2.72 Hellraiser decoupler pulley, dual pump setup, ID1300x injectors, and a flex tune. On full E85 my car will accelerate from 40 to 140MPH in about 10 seconds with the tires spinning from 40 to 60. It sounds fun and all but honestly I rarely go WOT on public roads as it's just too much.

At the drag strip I run a dedicated E85 tune and it's glorious in that setting.

That's my .02 cents.

This sounds fun to me. I just want some flexible crazy street power. I'm a little crazy on the streets but in a safe way. And great for the mexico races on the fly. lol Maybe I'll bring it to the strip one day but it's a long drive to any local strips here in MN. Which is why I don't bother. Life (for me) is just to busy for it.
I'm just looking for a DD in the summer with plenty of power on tap to kill anything I run into. lol

 

[fubar569]

Dual pumps, a pulley of some sort and a good flex tune will probably be your ticket. The E85 will pick you up 50-75hp average with no pulley change for those spontaneous nights across the southern border.

On the 2.79/93 octane combo the car is plenty goofy on the street. 22mpg on the highway pretty religiously if that is important to you.

On the 2.50/E85 kill tune it is down right ignorant. I've also towed a trailer to the track on this tune to prove a point. I got 13mpg doing so. LOL

There's a little room to grow from there (2.85/pumps/tune) without double buying parts.

Keep temperatures under control and with a good tune it'll live virtually forever.