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How much is too much?

Speedy!

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#1
Been doing a lot of talking with folks, analysis, sent parts off for analysis, etc and I'm curious what those folks who work with these cars everyday think are the limits on the stock internals. We've seen a few Hellcat engine failures and signs are pointing to bent/broken rods. It's looking like my engine failure was also a bent rod that eventually fractured in to a million pieces. I've gotten a few reports of this on Demons and now we've seen a Redeye or two fail as well.

Is there a horsepower limit that is starting to show in a bell curve or similar? I know we have a couple outliers in Jon Sipple and Demonology who are at or close to the 1000RWHP mark and beat on their cars several times a week, but what's the "norm" or recommended limit? 800rwhp? 850rwhp? 900rwhp?

Dyno numbers a side, we know what it takes to run low 10s, mid 9s, low 9s, high 8s etc.

@Hemituner @HighHorseman @curt_dusterhofftuning
 


curt_dusterhofftuning

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#2
Do you really think yours was a rod failure? I thought you had a piston failure in the wrist pin area.
 


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#3
I feel safe enough to daily drive mine on curt's stg 4...albeit on the 2.85/flex fuel file most of the time. This should be yielding ~750hp and ~800hp respectively depending on ethanol percentage and dyno conditions.

I do have about 800 or so street miles and a handful of 60-130 pulls validating the 2.5/E85 only setup which is said to yield 850-925whp. I don't think I'd daily it at those power levels again only because there isn't a pressing need to do so...nor at the possible expense of hard parts failure. It's there for local bragging rights and not much more than that.
 


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Thread Starter #4
If I'd had time I'd have pulled all the pistons out, but I was pressed so just boxed it up and shipped back to Mopar for core once we found the one disintegrated. I received some piston/rod assemblies from a performance shop (3 assemblies) from a failed engine. They didn't give me details on what failed, but @16GoManGoHC2 has experience testing parts failures so I shipped two of them to him to do some catastrophic tests on out of curiosity. I also sent him what was left of my #7 cylinder piston. Piston tops looked ok on the three test subjects, but had some scoring on the sides.

Turned out the piston assemblies I sent him were bent (granted not from my motor but AJ has mentioned bent rods more than once now). I kept one for myself as a souvenir and when Mike told me the others were bent I checked the one I kept, sure enough it's bent. The piston from my engine exhibited very similar wear characteristics on opposing sides as the assemblies I provided with bent rods. Mike's experience suggests the rod failed and caused my piston to fail. All just educated theory though really.

Had another shop reach out to me last week. Three Hellcats and a Demon all broke #7 and his analysis showed rod issues so they now recommend a piston/rod upgrade after 800rwhp.
 


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#5
900rwhp is "OK" with a customer who is well educated and watches data as I mentioned before.

Hell, they have lived at 1000rwhp + on spray as well with enough fuel, good fuel, and a proper tune.
 


72 440 Barracuda

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#6
After reading up on the powder forged rods I wonder if the jury is still out on the strength of these rods in high hp applications - is 800ish hp the top side of their use? Looking at threads and motors that have failures it might prudent to look at rods (and pistons) as a form of insurance?
 


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Thread Starter #7
900rwhp is "OK" with a customer who is well educated and watches data as I mentioned before.

Hell, they have lived at 1000rwhp + on spray as well with enough fuel, good fuel, and a proper tune.
Well...mine wasn't LOL and I was only about 150 - 175rwhp over stock and I data log every single run at the track. Mine was right around 800rwhp.
 


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#8
Well...mine wasn't LOL and I was only about 150 - 175rwhp over stock and I data log every single run at the track. Mine was right around 800rwhp.
I guess I look at "stock" a little differently, every car I have modified in the past has had minor issues somewhere, but those are old (60's and 70's muscle cars) and I generally know what issues to expect. In my opinion the new stuff is usually pretty bullet proof, its built from the factory to a point where it should stay together for 95% of the general public (the last 5% will destroy it no matter what and they probably shouldnt be behind the wheel in the first place).
My point is then asking what has the factory left on the table for those that want to get more out of the cars? It sounds like they left very little and maybe getting more requires steps like a new rod/piston package... Theres always a weak link somewhere thats why they stop putting more power in.
Not trying say don't go for it, I applaud that approach - it's just not for me.
 


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#9
FCA designs a car as a balanced system to perform as advertised. Interrupt that balance and all bets are off. Us mod guys are our own test mules on our dime...gotta pay to play :)
 


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#10
^^^^^^

Look what (redacted)/SRT did when he upgraded the HC motor by only 133 crank HP.

This was with SRT-standards durability in mind though. If you want to give up that level of assurance, then you can trade power for longevity.

I guess I've come full circle on your question, what does that curve look like.

Statistics weren't my thing in college, but we usually talk about how we're amazed to be living in an age where 700hp is normal...

It's not though, it's at the end of that curve.


;)



Wait, what was I saying?
 


16GoManGoHC2

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#11
Me, M6, 811 rwhp best dyno pull, 10.73 best 1/4, Im stoping here until I redo the bottom end.
 


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#12
Power production is only one facet that needs to be considered in the potential of these engines. Weight is a huge oversight, these cars are 1000lbs heavier than their contemporaries at the drag strip. Look at every Fox-body, G-body, or F-body that is effectively running a hopped up LS with the same power on stock bottom ends. That 1000lbs takes a massive load off the drivetrain - and if you don't think it has an effect you are delusional. The cylinder pressure in boosted engines is astronomical, and exacerbated by anything it works against (and this is nothing to say about the effects of aerodynamics).

I have a pretty decent amount of experience with boosted LS and Buick V6 engines using stock cast pistons (stock ring gaps), stock cast or powdered metal rods, and stock cast cranks. The Hellcat engine has basic forgings in all of those locations which aids in reliability in a factory forced induction application, and this does nothing to suggest it can support more power than provided from the OEM. Look at the HC engine: it has a factory 11.6psi of boost (a stupid measurement which fails to account for mass air flow) - rule of thumb is that each PSI is worth 30-50hp (it is a diminishing return as pressure rises and the abidatic efficiency of the PD blower lays over in the higher rev range). Figure 11.6 psi x 30hp = 348hp, subtracted from 717hp = 369hp; which means that a 9.5:1 NA HC motor makes approximately 370hp from its 6.2L. This is within the realm of possibilty, noting that the base engine and gains from the forced induction are likely higher as there is a known quanity 80hp pumping/mechanical power drain from operating the supercharger under load (also the SAE testing of the 2019 HC is showing 747hp crank). This is precisely consistent with the gains on a NA LS or Coyote engine with a power adder; after about 800 wheel whorespowers they all become time bombs.

In both instances (factory cast or factory forged internals) you are rolling the dice by doubling the power with forced induction, however when you put it into a land-yacht and penalize yourself with an additional 1000lbs of ballast your window for error narrows significantly. The saving grace for the HCs is the better, not great, factory internals. This is why I bought a HC, not to make superstar power, but have a beautifully engineered package that I can enjoy without worrying about driving over the crank (which is allegedly 1400hp capable in the HC, hence the need for a drop in rod and piston set for more reliable power) as designed. The margin of error was taken into account before it left the factory, remove the safety seal and all bets are off. It is like poking holes in condoms.

Two guys with success on the internet is not a sufficient sample size, and I put little credence in the actions of others. The same goes for every shitbird who cannot drive their car worth a damn and standing there with an "I dunno wha happen'd" look on their face when they do 3 gear full-out cool-guy burnouts (and just dump off the throttle at the end) to impress other people. These cars are marketed as performers with high-levels of potential in the right hands - the common denominator in all failures and poor performing HCs are the jackasses piloting them. Which are the same fools who toss money at Stage 11 durr... durr... 1000hp packages and have no appreciation for what it really means. People need to do their research, manage their expectations, and have some fucking accountability for the decisions they make.

A supercharged V8 is a beautiful thing. Keep good fuel in it, respect its inherent design limitations, and cut the weight down where ever possible (especially reciprocating mass in the driveline).
 


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#13
Didn't Chris Cowland say that at rated power (707hp) every time the spark plug fires it is like 20,000lbs of force on top of the piston? Like he said, its the equivalent of stacking the weight of 5 family sedans on top of the piston every time the spark plug fires. That is just incredible when you think about it. I cant even imagine how much force must be created at the 1,000+ level.
 


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#14
I still think it's detonation closing up the ring gaps and breaking things. The two weakest things break first..pistons and rods.

It all goes back to tuning.
 


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Thread Starter #15
Detonation would/should show up in logs, plugs, tops of pistons, etc. @motorhead, so you're suggesting somehow my driving broke the engine? Ok, LOL. The two examples I quoted are people I know personally and have talked to. There are a lot of others, but maybe they're lucky?

800 rwhp for Hellcats and 875-900rwhp for Demons might end up becoming a thing over time. We'll see I guess.

I'd definitely skip anything that claims "drop in". By the time you buy the parts and bearings you're about half what a professionally assembled 1000+hp capable short block would cost you, never mind the labor. If this new RE engine has to come out, a fully built forged motor's going back in. Hopefully I don't have to do that though.

^^^^^^

Look what (redacted)/SRT did when he upgraded the HC motor by only 133 crank HP.

This was with SRT-standards durability in mind though. If you want to give up that level of assurance, then you can trade power for longevity.

I guess I've come full circle on your question, what does that curve look like.
I'm not familiar with what you're referring to above @BULL?
 


motorhead

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#16
Detonation would/should show up in logs, plugs, tops of pistons, etc. @motorhead, so you're suggesting somehow my driving broke the engine? Ok, LOL. The two examples I quoted are people I know personally and have talked to. There are a lot of others, but maybe they're lucky?

800 rwhp for Hellcats and 875-900rwhp for Demons might end up becoming a thing over time. We'll see I guess.

I'd definitely skip anything that claims "drop in". By the time you buy the parts and bearings you're about half what a professionally assembled 1000+hp capable short block would cost you, never mind the labor. If this new RE engine has to come out, a fully built forged motor's going back in. Hopefully I don't have to do that though.
No, that is not what I am saying or said - so don't read into it. However, only you can control your actions (like choosing and validating your shift points) - regardless, your transparency continues to be appreciated. This is one of those instances where it is not better to be lucky than good. It is better to be a good, and highly conscientious, end user of a performance car. The instances you have raised of this problem are not isolated to your findings, without question it has occurred elsewhere and has never been reported on the internet... and Dodge sure as shit isn't going to advertise the number of warranty claims that have fallen out of 35,000 HC engines on the road. And to suggest "800rwhp" is the safe limit is now just another internet WAG, considering it is already strained at just over 800hp crank (cumulative output).

Tuning a car well goes beyond the computer telling you there is "knock" being reported through a sensor and pulling timing in some slim hope of self-preservation over the course of a few milliseconds. https://www.onallcylinders.com/2014/10/20/whats-difference-detonation-pre-ignition/ & http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue54/EngineBasics.html Just because the computer did or did not hear something doesn't mean that some event didn't occur.

I am not infallible, in fact I actually keep a melted piston and rod assembly at my desk to serve as a constant reminder about pushing the limits in a boosted engine (and life in general) - granted this was a Turbo Dodge; but the lesson was learned none-the-less. A wise man once said: Breaking lots of parts doesn't make you a racer, it makes you a slow learner.
 


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#17
If the ring gap is closing, the ringland would be failing and we would see that in the piston and the cylinders. I don't know that it has been reported yet, but it had to have been looked for - certainly by anyone with experience with GEN3 HEMI motors that have been plagued by ringland failures for years.
 


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Thread Starter #18
I've been working with Gen III Hemi platforms for about 10 years. I'm not a professional shop by any means, but have been around enough to see patterns and learn from those that build these engines. On the 5.7 and 6.1 HEMI platforms (and especially the 6.4), the ring lands were a problem. The rings would expand due to heat, touch end on end, and with no where to go would bend up and usually snap off the intake side of the piston above the last ring land. I've seen this happen A LOT on stock engines with boost added. One shop disassembled a stock 6.1L motor, filed the rings to enlarge the gap, and re-assembled the stock engine and proceeded to run some very good numbers on boost, but that's the only one I ever heard of doing that. I had a 6.0L stroker built from a 5.7 with all forged good parts and raced that thing for 9 years trouble free and it's still on the road today. I made that decision based on all the 5.7L engines that were blowing up at the time with boost.

I say all that to say if the rings were a problem in my case, the opposite end of the piston broke. The skirt sheered off almost cleanly right around the wrist pin and I didn't see any signs of issues with the top ring land.

After Mike (16GoManGoHC2) did some analysis, it looks to him like the rod was bending, put add'l stress on the wrist pin area, and snapped it off.
 


motorhead

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#19
I've been working with Gen III Hemi platforms for about 10 years. I'm not a professional shop by any means, but have been around enough to see patterns and learn from those that build these engines. On the 5.7 and 6.1 HEMI platforms (and especially the 6.4), the ring lands were a problem. The rings would expand due to heat, touch end on end, and with no where to go would bend up and usually snap off the intake side of the piston above the last ring land. I've seen this happen A LOT on stock engines with boost added. One shop disassembled a stock 6.1L motor, filed the rings to enlarge the gap, and re-assembled the stock engine and proceeded to run some very good numbers on boost, but that's the only one I ever heard of doing that. I had a 6.0L stroker built from a 5.7 with all forged good parts and raced that thing for 9 years trouble free and it's still on the road today. I made that decision based on all the 5.7L engines that were blowing up at the time with boost.

I say all that to say if the rings were a problem in my case, the opposite end of the piston broke. The skirt sheered off almost cleanly right around the wrist pin and I didn't see any signs of issues with the top ring land.
Same deal with LS builds. If you are going max effort on a SBE you pull the pistons, file the rings, and pop it back together. The HCs have the ring lands lowered slightly (unlike the NA Gen III; and also why the HC is 6.2L vs. 6.4L), but it is not nearly enough in a stock application for big boi power numbers as it relates to design and materials (thanks CAFE!). https://www.lsxmag.com/features/pony-wars-2-episode-3-procharged-engine-builds/

Check out how beefy the stock GN pistons are: https://www.cartechbooks.com/techtips/how-to-build-your-engine-for-a-turbocharger/
 


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#20
If the ring gap is closing, the ringland would be failing and we would see that in the piston and the cylinders. I don't know that it has been reported yet, but it had to have been looked for - certainly by anyone with experience with GEN3 HEMI motors that have been plagued by ringland failures for years.
The ring lands, groove bottoms and ring but ends where one of the first areas I inspected on samples Speedy sent me after looking at his failed piston. Nothing funny seen strange on the ring area of what was left of his piston nor on the 2 samples from a different Hellcat engine he sent me.

I was going to do a tensile strength stretch until failure test on the assemblies to see what failed first the piston or the rod and where from RPM induced centrifugal load as the piston changed direction between exhaust and intake stroke. My first theory was heat and the pistons seizing in the tops of the bores from being over heated and their bottoms being pulled off but after inspecting what Speedy sent me and taking them to a guy who has handled more pistons in his lifetime then most likely 90% of any other engine builder out there he pointed out bent rods on both by just a 10 second glance at the piston portion of the assemblies and not once looking at the rod, and he was right!!! Their both bent alright, in the wrist pin bore, both in the same plane, axially with the pin, firewall sides of both pistons canted down.
954A0454-B9E4-4023-9DD3-B19DAEBE51A8.jpeg
 




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