Success! 12" wide - square/rotatable WHEELS FOR A WIDEBODY

[Confuzed1]

Ya know I have not even tried the big ones up front. The track set has 325's in front. Looked at them through the turning range and they work better than a 305 on a wheel that sticks out a bit.

All four wheels are matching 12" wide 20" dia.

Ahhh gotcha. Your title to the thread does say rotatable wheels - not tires. The pic you posted with the 345's on the rear look perfect for the car. They still tuck in, and fully fill the wheel well. I agree, 345's would stick out on the front since the 325's seem to be about as wide as I'd go in the front by your pic.

 

[McLovin]

McLovin and DGatzby and All,

This is a great thread and I can't wait to hear your verdict, DGatzby, on your Red Eye Wide Body suspension mods, those great-looking 12" wheels (staggered tire widths to boot!), and Pilot Sport Cup 2's. I'm new to the HPDE scene so appreciate the expertise of posters. Keeping your stock Devil's Rims with the Toyo tires will be useful for any extended periods of street driving between tracking your car, and for cooler weather.

I have an acquaintance here in Northern Kentucky with a lot of racing experience, mostly Corvettes and Camaros, and who still runs his cars in HPDE events, and I asked him about wheels/tires. He said, "Wheels, tires, alignment are the most important aspects of making your car controllable and fast on a road course. Added width is generally helpful. As for tire compounds the Michelin Cup 2 tires are very sticky when warm but really treacherous when cold. I've run several sets of them but be super careful until they are warm. They will slide with little warning and keep going if they are cold. The Pilot Sport 4 is a much safer tire and will last longer. Just a bit less quick when hot. Wide tires need wide wheels for sure."

I was happy to hear his advice for me as a Novice Class driver was the safer avenue with Pilot Sport 4's - answering McLovin's question about having just one set of wheels and tires for mostly street, occasional track events, and echoing DGatzby's endorsement. I will be driving a couple of hours each way to local tracks on the tires I'll use in HPDE so Pilot 4's will be ideal.

I also thought I'd pass along the caution about Pilot Sport 2's needing to be warmed up!

Best,

Finface

Not sure if you should be putting me in the same category as @DGatzby ...

I'm basically a poorly trained shithead trying to soak up as much knowledge / experience / advise as I can from others on here.

 

[DGatzby]

Ahhh gotcha. Your title to the thread does say rotatable wheels - not tires. The pic you posted with the 345's on the rear look perfect for the car. They still tuck in, and fully fill the wheel well. I agree, 345's would stick out on the front since the 325's seem to be about as wide as I'd go in the front by your pic.

I can’t imagine much better. That 325 is a bunch of rubber stuffed in there. It really is not that much less than the 345. We shall see, hope it is warm and dry down in OK in a few weeks then we can see what difference they will make for it.

 

[sad]

....We shall see, hope it is warm and dry down in OK in a few weeks then we can see what difference they will make for it.

Spring in the Midwest..... tornadoes at noon; snow by 7 pm. LOL

 

[DGatzby]

Ahhh gotcha. Your title to the thread does say rotatable wheels - not tires. The pic you posted with the 345's on the rear look perfect for the car. They still tuck in, and fully fill the wheel well. I agree, 345's would stick out on the front since the 325's seem to be about as wide as I'd go in the front by your pic.

You know, looking at the 11" wide fronts of my custom set with a 305/35 on it. The "gap" really disappears by simply spacing that 11" wheel out. It sits about where the outside of the 12" sits. From the side, I could not tell you if it was a 325 or a 305. But put a 305 on the OE rim in its natural place and the "gap" appears.

There is no doubt the rear works with the 345's. Damn the roads were still cold and it was busting those big mothers loose at about any legal speed last weekend. Plus it was benefitting from the low DA. It is a fun unit. Just the tension arms alone began to help the flipping wheel hop. She was accelerating pretty smooth once when I really tried in the low gears.

Spring in the Midwest..... tornadoes at noon; snow by 7 pm. LOL

Nice. That is not what I want to see.

 

[coolblue]

I missed this too. I saw the original post but not the tires and rims mounted. Very sharp! Still want to see what you think of the tower brace when you finally get a run at the track.

 

[sad]

Nice. That is not what I want to see.

me neither! all kidding aside, hoping for good weather. I have the need for speed and gee’s

 

[DGatzby]

I missed this too. I saw the original post but not the tires and rims mounted. Very sharp! Still want to see what you think of the tower brace when you finally get a run at the track.

I felt it already. My front end don't tilt much a thing all now. It feels and IS much tighter. No comfort is comprised. BUT, the BMR sway bar is also in place. It is set in most soft right now. It will be interesting to take it to the most firm and feel that difference.p also.

 

[Confuzed1]

You know, looking at the 11" wide fronts of my custom set with a 305/35 on it. The "gap" really disappears by simply spacing that 11" wheel out. It sits about where the outside of the 12" sits. From the side, I could not tell you if it was a 325 or a 305. But put a 305 on the OE rim in its natural place and the "gap" appears.

There is no doubt the rear works with the 345's. Damn the roads were still cold and it was busting those big mothers loose at about any legal speed last weekend. Plus it was benefitting from the low DA. It is a fun unit. Just the tension arms alone began to help the flipping wheel hop. She was accelerating pretty smooth once when I really tried in the low gears.

One of the big things I really like as I look at your setup is the fender gap above the tires seems greatly reduced. I assume you have not used lowering springs. I looked at JUST THE PRICE of the tires you're running alone in the rear....$$$ can't hide money $$$. And those wheels must be seriously pricey...lol.

I'd hope once you warm those monsters up on the track, hopefully you'll need to really try to break them loose. Just a guess, but once you get all the suspension upgrades done, I wouldn't be surprised at all if everything feels a bit stiffer. Hopefully not too much though.

Thanks for sharing your setup!! Maybe in a year or so, I'll consider doing a similar to mine!

 

[DGatzby]

One of the big things I really like as I look at your setup is the fender gap above the tires seems greatly reduced. I assume you have not used lowering springs. I looked at JUST THE PRICE of the tires you're running alone in the rear....$$$ can't hide money $$$. And those wheels must be seriously pricey...lol.

I'd hope once you warm those monsters up on the track, hopefully you'll need to really try to break them loose. Just a guess, but once you get all the suspension upgrades done, I wouldn't be surprised at all if everything feels a bit stiffer. Hopefully not too much though.

Thanks for sharing your setup!! Maybe in a year or so, I'll consider doing a similar to mine!

Yep, not cheap. The amazing fact is the 4S is more expensive then the Cup 2! That is why the RE still has a virgin line lock button! But the 4S does hold up well. I'll give it that too. Yep, again the wheels are not cheap either. Those things I got from Biz are cool, can't wait to try them. They really fit well. Damn new tires are too particular until I can heat them up good once and heat cycle them. So I'll wait. Wow, checked on getting a pair of those fancy bead locks, and that will need to wait! I may be the guy who tries the 20" tires on the strip. I may be able to do a couple of practice runs late on a road day up there before I commit. I'll bet some warm Cup 2's could bite down pretty hard especially with a stiff rear end. Problem is the front KW spring won't release upwards, allowing a good weight transfer to the rear. We tried that with the '15 when I tested the driveshaft for QA1. Sucker launches real flat.

Yes, you see it, getting the wheels closer to the edge closes the gap. I looked again pulling in tonight, that is crazy how good the fronts look. Those are simply 11" wide & stick out to match where the 12" are out back and have the 305's on them.

Stiffer? Good news. With just the sway bar and Petty Brace the front end is tremendous in the anti-tilt department now. Those two things did not hurt the ride at all, but in the steering and feeling the lack of lean, it is big! Plus I have the sway bar setting on most soft now. So for the track it will be a blast on the most stiff setting. Those big bushings alone probably did a bunch of good.

In the back with just the tension arm bolted in with Energy Suspension bushings, I did nail it once this weekend, and the hop was already diminished a noticeable amount. Again, so far, no extra noise and the ride was still very good. How do I know? I have a calibrated little brunette that can sense any changes at all that rides along a lot.

 

[Finface]

DGatzby,

Did you mean to say your drove 500 miles with the 325/345 staggered set, or with 305's up front?

Great discussion.

You are the weather reconnaissance pilot on testing for other REWB owners who love the look and also might want to track their challengers!

Best,

Finface

 

[DGatzby]

DGatzby,

Did you mean to say your drove 500 miles with the 325/345 staggered set, or with 305's up front?

Great discussion.

You are the weather reconnaissance pilot on testing for other REWB owners who love the look and also might want to track their challengers!

Best,

Finface

On my "street" mags. Not the road setup with the 12" wheels and bigger Cup 2's. 305's up front, 345's in the rear. I felt the handling difference in the front and rear with just the bolt on stuff.

 

[Finface]

On my "street" mags. Not the road setup with the 12" wheels and bigger Cup 2's. 305's up front, 345's in the rear. I felt the handling difference in the front and rear with just the bolt on stuff.

Roger. I got confused by the photos in your post - which I understood were the 325's up front. I need bigger wheels and tires!

 

[DGatzby]

Okay, got it back today equipped to help make the big rubber make a difference.

First, how about these factory/street alignment readings?



Damn, to say that is on the nuts is an understatement! Had a great tech and seasoned racer/mechanic that is known for being rather anal. When given the toys from AAD and BMR he got it on for my street pleasure. I can say it drove real straight. I'll talk with him Monday, he also knows which AAD chip makes what amount of angular change for my track use. Plus he knows what the toe settings do when we change the camber only with the arms.

Some car porn...


What you can't see clearly are different tension rods and solid shorter sway links. Did you catch the GyroDisc aka Demon Performance two piece rears, with their air vanes? I had the tech just change them out while he had the rear down on the floor. I only had to drive a short distance home. Yes, it was interesting feeling so much pull from the rear on a "what the hell" big braking moment (has Hawk DTC-70 pads). I still have the Powerstops on the front. I need to just change those out to match the rears to be ready to go. Here is the front, almost ready to rumble.



It was a short 15 mile trip home a couple exit ramps, an attempt to check for wheel hop once all with 30 degrees and with Toyo R888R warm tires. I was real, real happy with the ride. The Redeye has a great street personality. Given the temps and the tires it had on it, it did not seem very different just riding down the street. As was my experience with the same rear mods on my '15, the Whiteline bushings along with just upgraded arms and their more firm bushings, the ride comfort of the car don't feel stiff like other cars it whips on the track. Hell yes, it smartly turned, and the KW springs working with the two big new stabilizers up front have certainly tamed the body lean a great deal! More to come. If they don't close the roads, me and a friend are off to Oklahoma next week to meet Mr. @sad so he can show us his toys and his home track. Bonus is my friend who purchased my '15 is bringing it up, he got some DP brakes, new PS4S 305/35's on those 10.5" light Triumph monoblock rears and the 285/35's on his 9.5" fronts. I gave him a set of DTC-70 pads for all four corners, so he also has the stopping deal covered. That car is hot! We may even see how hot

 

[sad]

Always scary to look at your car in a pile of parts just days before some event.. LOL Nice to see it coming to closure.

Do those suspension components give you more camber control? Looks like it does??

With the vette, it is different of course in the arrangement. Double wishbone all around. The upper control arms are shipped with two washers behind the dog-bone/mounts.... Want more camber? Remove a washer from upper; causes upper control arm to much such that you have more negative camber. Want even more? remove the second washer.

It works pretty well and i'm actually surprised the factory even included something like this for a street car.... BUT it's really limited in it's adjustability.. It's kind of like you get a "little adjustment" in a "normal" mode..... and a similarly small range of adjustment with a "medium" amount of negative camber..... and finally, a bit of adjustment with a "lot" (for street car that is) of negative camber.

I ask about more camber control... because i think you're going to want a little more than what the factory recommends... Since they mostly consider the challenger a drag-type car, i suspect that there's not a second alignment recommendation for road course use? I just can't recall because I never looked for one... And just ran mine at the very limits of factory recommendation - i.e. as much negative camber as can be had with the adjustments.

On the Vette I'm running (by memory) somewhere around -2.5 up front and -2.0 in the rear. Which is somewhere in the middle of a 50/50 track/street car.

The negative camber is really really beneficial in handling and cornering. Under extreme cornering, it's going to allow your tire to run more flat with the pavement and have a much better contact patch.

At the track, you're going to drive on the outside edge of your tires... Hence the negative camber sets things right.

Naturally, it would seem that this would cause weird tire wear... I'm not seeing any... I can show you this weekend! Coming up soon!

I have shakedown trip (in the Vette) this Wednesday... and I think when we're together, 1 day I'll bring the Atom and the other I'll bring the Vette.

 

[sad]

I like the fact that the Vette is adjustable from the factory... but it should really be called caveman-adjustable.... it's archaic and not granular at all....

On my list of toys to buy is a set of the adjustable studs. They would make it infinity adjustable anywhere between the factory maximum and the factory minimum.

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forum...sport-upper-control-arm-stud-kits-for-c7.html

For once.... an inexpensive and easy solution to a racer's needs?? What the heck is that about?? LOL

 

[DGatzby]

Always scary to look at your car in a pile of parts just days before some event.. LOL Nice to see it coming to closure.

Do those suspension components give you more camber control? Looks like it does??

With the vette, it is different of course in the arrangement. Double wishbone all around. The upper control arms are shipped with two washers behind the dog-bone/mounts.... Want more camber? Remove a washer from upper; causes upper control arm to much such that you have more negative camber. Want even more? remove the second washer.

It works pretty well and i'm actually surprised the factory even included something like this for a street car.... BUT it's really limited in it's adjustability.. It's kind of like you get a "little adjustment" in a "normal" mode..... and a similarly small range of adjustment with a "medium" amount of negative camber..... and finally, a bit of adjustment with a "lot" (for street car that is) of negative camber.

I ask about more camber control... because i think you're going to want a little more than what the factory recommends... Since they mostly consider the challenger a drag-type car, i suspect that there's not a second alignment recommendation for road course use? I just can't recall because I never looked for one... And just ran mine at the very limits of factory recommendation - i.e. as much negative camber as can be had with the adjustments.

On the Vette I'm running (by memory) somewhere around -2.5 up front and -2.0 in the rear. Which is somewhere in the middle of a 50/50 track/street car.

The negative camber is really really beneficial in handling and cornering. Under extreme cornering, it's going to allow your tire to run more flat with the pavement and have a much better contact patch.

At the track, you're going to drive on the outside edge of your tires... Hence the negative camber sets things right.

Naturally, it would seem that this would cause weird tire wear... I'm not seeing any... I can show you this weekend! Coming up soon!

I have shakedown trip (in the Vette) this Wednesday... and I think when we're together, 1 day I'll bring the Atom and the other I'll bring the Vette.

I like the fact that the Vette is adjustable from the factory... but it should really be called caveman-adjustable.... it's archaic and not granular at all....

On my list of toys to buy is a set of the adjustable studs. They would make it infinity adjustable anywhere between the factory maximum and the factory minimum.

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forum...sport-upper-control-arm-stud-kits-for-c7.html

For once.... an inexpensive and easy solution to a racer's needs?? What the heck is that about?? LOL

The AAD products on all four corners we installed and paid dearly for, allow a great deal of negative OR positive camber adjustment for our drag racing pleasure. As you can see what I am beginning with is the nearly perfect adjustments in the middle of recommendations to adjust from. Saturday will be fun, taking tire temps and playing with the new toys to get it dialed in before I bolt the big rubber back on Sunday morning. Bring the Vette Sunday, I won't even be able to begin to chase the Atom, that will be a good plan Saturday. Your weather forecast is excellent!

 

[sad]

The AAD products on all four corners we installed and paid dearly for, allow a great deal of negative OR positive camber adjustment for our drag racing pleasure. As you can see what I am beginning with is the nearly perfect adjustments in the middle of recommendations to adjust from. Saturday will be fun, taking tire temps and playing with the new toys to get it dialed in before I bolt the big rubber back on Sunday morning. Bring the Vette Sunday, I won't even be able to begin to chase the Atom, that will be a good plan Saturday. Your weather forecast is excellent!

Interesting. Didn’t realize (or I forgot) that you were going to run one set of tires Saturday, and then move to the Cup2s on Sunday. Will be interesting to hear your reactions between the two. Would be nice to hook up a Solo2DL to collect data and compare the results side by side.

The weird part? I’ll turn faster lap times in the Vette. I’m still in learning mode with the Atom.... and now I’ve had dead-time over winter. The Atom’s rear engine takes a bit of bravery. Still playing around with line/braking/throttle application.

Atom braking - I can dive way into the corners and brake way late. and only using DTC30 pads. Car is so light that it doesn’t matter much that the 30 is a more street oriented pad. At the very end on a session, I can touch the front rotors with bare hand.

Atom power - Very unnerving to apply the throttle so aggressively and so early in a turn. "When in doubt, throttle out."

Depending upon how they schedule the run groups, you can hitch a ride with me, and I can talk you thru some of the lines.

Do you have any intercom stuff? my Stilo helmet has it all built-in... and I’m using a Trac-Com. I have a student boom mic That can be worked into your helmet if necessary.

 

[sad]

Speaking of tire temps, not sure if you have one or not... But I have a pyrometer with probe. The infrared laser pointers are not super useful for tires. You’re welcome to try it if you like.

 

[DGatzby]

Interesting. Didn’t realize (or I forgot) that you were going to run one set of tires Saturday, and then move to the Cup2s on Sunday. Will be interesting to hear your reactions between the two. Would be nice to hook up a Solo2DL to collect data and compare the results side by side.

The weird part? I’ll turn faster lap times in the Vette. I’m still in learning mode with the Atom.... and now I’ve had dead-time over winter. The Atom’s rear engine takes a bit of bravery. Still playing around with line/braking/throttle application.

Atom braking - I can dive way into the corners and brake way late. and only using DTC30 pads. Car is so light that it doesn’t matter much that the 30 is a more street oriented pad. At the very end on a session, I can touch the front rotors with bare hand.

Atom power - Very unnerving to apply the throttle so aggressively and so early in a turn. "When in doubt, throttle out."

Depending upon how they schedule the run groups, you can hitch a ride with me, and I can talk you thru some of the lines.

Do you have any intercom stuff? my Stilo helmet has it all built-in... and I’m using a Trac-Com. I have a student boom mic That can be worked into your helmet if necessary.

Have to "heat cycle" them. I understand I run them a session and get them hot, then they sit for 24 hr and we can play with them again.

I could never find the "guts" to really corner the Spec Racer last year and drove it for three days. Those things and your Atom have capabilities that scare most of us! Couple of the experienced instructors/racers were waxing us students.

I do have a good set of audio-on intercom stuff for two. I bet my mic/bud plug fits your also.