The price was right so I snagged it but...

[DavidKFla]

Sounds like from the description they are not an approved fuel transport container?? “non-fuel” liquids

Mine was sold to me by a VP dealer to transport the pump race fuel. Never had a problem except you can't store fuel long-term.

 

[16GoManGoHC2]

Mine was sold to me by a VP dealer to transport the pump race fuel. Never had a problem except you can't store fuel long-term.

I wonder why that is? Can’t store fuel in them long term? That would be the definite game changer for me as I have E99 in the steel cans for 2-3 years now. Filled to the brim, no air, and stabilized with Lucas E85 stabilizer, still like fresh out of the drum. I use that for when pump flex drops out of the 80’s to bring it back up into the 80% range. I think steel cans is the only recommended long term storage material especially for ethanol. They do take up more space then the nice square red ones unfortunately but are at least stackable. I have probably 20 of them filled with E83 or 99 to get me through next spring until summer E arrives back in the pumps in these parts.

 

[DavidKFla]

I wonder why that is? Can’t store fuel in them long term? That would be the definite game changer for me as I have E99 in the steel cans for 2-3 years now. Filled to the brim, no air, and stabilized with Lucas E85 stabilizer, still like fresh out of the drum. I use that for when pump flex drops out of the 80’s to bring it back up into the 80% range. I think steel cans is the only recommended long term storage material especially for ethanol. They do take up more space then the nice square red ones unfortunately but are at least stackable. I have probably 20 of them filled with E83 or 99 to get me through next spring until summer E arrives back in the pumps in these parts.

I don't think that they're completely airtight.

 

[16GoManGoHC2]

I don't think that they're completely airtight.

You may be right there. I can say that having over 100 gallons on hand in cans there is absolutely zero fuel smell in my shop so the cans must be air and vapor tight.

 

[Speedy!]

I used to use those fill spouts for the cans, but had two break the little vent tube holder at the nozzle making them almost useless after that. Got tired of replacing $20 nozzles so I went to the jugs. I really like them. Mine would drip a bit at the vent until I learned I only needed to crack it open like 1/2 a turn and it did the job. I don't store fuel in mine, I keep the Racing E85 in the steel cans until I'm ready to use it, then I transfer to the jugs, and dump the entire thing in at the track.

Just ordered the lock ring tool, might as well as much as I've fooled with this thanks for the info.

 

[Speedy!]

Any need in replacing seals while the pump housing is a part? I see Fore offers a set for $12. I may can find a viton o ring set online though.

 

[16GoManGoHC2]

O, one more thing on the pump assembly. The outlet bung, take notice it’s drilled out like I did to the fuel supply line but to .425” ID verse .400 on the fuel line. That left a .037” wall thickness tube, BIG physical difference easily seeable. The reason to be able to drill it out larger than the fuel line is the catch ring is machined onto the OD of the aluminum fitting verses rolled onto like the fuel lines are, fuel line could only be opened up to what the wall thickness of the fuel line was. This helps fuel delivery as well. Good time to remove a restriction if you have access to a lathe and drill bit set. Can be seen here just a bit verse original.

 

[16GoManGoHC2]

Any need in replacing seals while the pump housing is a part? I see Fore offers a set for $12. I may can find a viton o ring set online though.

I didn’t but it sure wouldn’t hurt to as any leaks yes just spill back into the tank but will take away from delivery potential if they are leaking. Good idea for 12$

 

[Speedy!]

Got all tools and parts on order. I had to order a "Hellcat Hardware Pack" from Fore. They don't just sell the viton o-rings so I get some bolts/screws I wont' need. $12 turned in to $22 with the flat rate $10 shipping. That's a pet peeve to me. These small parts are probably $2 to ship. If they need the extra $8 so bad, just make the kit $20.

@16GoManGoHC2 thanks for the 411 on the thin section wrenches, got a set of those coming to make the job a bit easier.

 

[BULL]

Got all tools and parts on order. I had to order a "Hellcat Hardware Pack" from Fore. They don't just sell the viton o-rings so I get some bolts/screws I wont' need. $12 turned in to $22 with the flat rate $10 shipping. That's a pet peeve to me. These small parts are probably $2 to ship. If they need the extra $8 so bad, just make the kit $20.

@16GoManGoHC2 thanks for the 411 on the thin section wrenches, got a set of those coming to make the job a bit easier.

I agree, but at the same time it's surprising how expensive it is to ship stuff at the Post Office anymore!

 

[jonx96]

I agree, but at the same time it's surprising how expensive it is to ship stuff at the Post Office anymore!

I priority mail 2 day ship my RTD devices for 8 to 11 dollars depending on where in the US they are going. That includes insurance as well. But yes shipping on especially big items have went up.

 

[BULL]

I priority mail 2 day ship my RTD devices for 8 to 11 dollars depending on where in the US they are going. That includes insurance as well. But yes shipping on especially big items have went up.

Right, but I suppose thinking along the lines of @Speedy! , you could probably ship a couple of O-rings for the cost of a 1st-class stamp...

 

[jonx96]

Right, but I suppose thinking along the lines of @Speedy! , you could probably ship a couple of O-rings for the cost of a 1st-class stamp...

O ya I agree. I was saying the rtd is a much larger device then what he ordered

 

[Speedy!]

Well crap. Replaced both fuel pumps, no change in fuel pressure. Hindsight 20/20 I went back and looked at logs and should have noticed.

PSA - if you have a dual drop in system similar to or from Tapped, if you unplug fuel pump 1 then fuel pump 2 will only get a max of 50% duty cycle. Looking at the wiring it's now obvious. Fuel pump 1 is the master and controls the PWM function of fuel pump 2. With fuel pump 1 disconnected pump 2 just goes in to default mode. Live and learn. At least I have some new tools in the tool box and a couple spare 285 pumps

Now on to the next piece of trouble shooting. Gonna have to build a small harness for the JMS to work proper with this drop in fuel system and give that a shot. I'll need a couple relays and thinking I'm gonna go with the ones that come with fuses installed to make wiring a bit neater.

Something like this unless someone has a better suggestion: https://amzn.to/3GRpig2

@16GoManGoHC2 @BULL

 

[16GoManGoHC2]

Well crap. Replaced both fuel pumps, no change in fuel pressure. Hindsight 20/20 I went back and looked at logs and should have noticed.

PSA - if you have a dual drop in system similar to or from Tapped, if you unplug fuel pump 1 then fuel pump 2 will only get a max of 50% duty cycle. Looking at the wiring it's now obvious. Fuel pump 1 is the master and controls the PWM function of fuel pump 2. With fuel pump 1 disconnected pump 2 just goes in to default mode. Live and learn. At least I have some new tools in the tool box and a couple spare 285 pumps

Now on to the next piece of trouble shooting. Gonna have to build a small harness for the JMS to work proper with this drop in fuel system and give that a shot. I'll need a couple relays and thinking I'm gonna go with the ones that come with fuses installed to make wiring a bit neater.

Something like this unless someone has a better suggestion: https://amzn.to/3GRpig2

@16GoManGoHC2 @BULL

Those are nice relays!! 👍🏻👍🏻

But theoretically from what Rick told me once the car should run the same on either fuel pump as they both follow the same command signal. Did you call Rick and confirm your idea on signals?

 

[Speedy!]

I didn't call him but will try tomorrow. All I did was unplug the two pin connector that goes to each fuel pump. When pump 1 is connected I see 85% fuel pump DC in the log and 70psi of fuel pressure as I ease down on the throttle (not much just enough to create load). If I do the same test with only fuel pump 2 connected I only see 53% fuel pump DC and fuel pressure drops to 30ish psi. I'm thinking it must need the return back to fuel pump 1 for the car to know what pump duty cycle is required. I think it makes sense as there is only one wire connecting FPCM 1 to FPCM 2 and it's the purple PWM control wire at pin B in the FPCM.

 

[16GoManGoHC2]

I didn't call him but will try tomorrow. All I did was unplug the two pin connector that goes to each fuel pump. When pump 1 is connected I see 85% fuel pump DC in the log and 70psi of fuel pressure as I ease down on the throttle (not much just enough to create load). If I do the same test with only fuel pump 2 connected I only see 53% fuel pump DC and fuel pressure drops to 30ish psi. I'm thinking it must need the return back to fuel pump 1 for the car to know what pump duty cycle is required. I think it makes sense as there is only one wire connecting FPCM 1 to FPCM 2 and it's the purple PWM control wire at pin B in the FPCM.

I just sent Rick a txt asking him about it. As I had a question for him about hanging 3 285’s so I asked him both questions. If he replies I’ll post it.

Sounds like you may have a bad fuel pump or the check valve in pump 1 isn’t holding and pump 2 is blowing through it back to the tank. They both should run exactly the same as a single. I have heard of bad pumps right out of the box.

 

[Speedy!]

There's no way I happened to have pump 2 be originally bad, and buy two brand new ones and a bad one get put in for pump 2. The odds of that would have to be astronomical. Plus, the log shows pump 2 only getting 53% duty cycle when it should be in the 80% range based on pump 1's test result.

 

[16GoManGoHC2]

There's no way I happened to have pump 2 be originally bad, and buy two brand new ones and a bad one get put in for pump 2. That odds of that would have to be astronomical! Plus, the log shows pump 2 only getting 53% duty cycle when it should be in the 80% range based on pump 1's test result.

I can agree there, but the speed signal sent by the computer to run the pumps is based off what fuel pressure is at the sensor on the rail. I would think if fuel pressure was low the car would have ramped the pump signal up to the max or until desired fuel pressure was met? The car has no idea what speed the pumps are running just what is being commanded and what the fuel pressure sensor tells it is happening from that command. I would suggest hooking pump 1 out put to pump 2 and see it pump 2 then runs the same as pump 1 fuel pressure wise. The FPCM’s have not idea what pump they are connected to. This my understanding of how they work at least.

 

[Speedy!]

I needed to noodle on this a bit. The fuel system is pretty complex in these cars. Some of that is a good thing, and some of that is a bad thing in terms of us trying to modify it.

I've looked at the factory wiring schematic for standard Hellcat closely and drawn out wiring diagrams for the dual drop in system so I can see it clearly. There is a feedback loop from the fuel system (maybe the pump itself not 100% sure) back to FPCM 1 on PIN F of the FPCM connector. This feedback does NOT go over to FPCM 2 on the dual drop in system. Instead they used PIN B which is PWM control to basically mirror FPCM 1. That's why I call FPCM 1 the master, it's telling FPCM 2 what to do. This is why I believe unplugging pump 1 causes pump 2 not to increase duty cycle with load. It doesn't know what the load is and defaults to 50%. In the tune there are settings for FP "fault" and it's set to 55% which lines up as well.

I need to give Rick Tapped a call and get HIM on the phone to confirm all this. When I called them before I got one of their CS folks and they just said "replace the pumps". Well, that didn't work so thanks lol.

I need to get a copy of the Redeye fuel system schematic to compare.